Discussions about the fashion industry thread

[thesilentist]



I may sound like an old fart by saying it, but I think a big over-reaching problem with B&M shops is that most people who are becoming old enough to shop for their own clothes are used to having most of their interaction with people online; facebook, insta, tinder, styleforum, etc. So most of the population of that generation is completely inept at looking someone in the face and having any sort of human contact.

From experience, this is very true. Generationally, older clients of mine currently and before when I worked at a B&M loved getting a phone call. Younger clients preferred a text. And the eye contact thing is very true. It's astonishing how many people can't maintain a conversation.

Regarding point one, I think online shopping has also made people less interested in personal interaction with SAs. Nobody likes a pushy SA, but if you're used to ten years of private online shopping, where you just pick out stuff on your own, it can be even more off putting when an SA approaches you. Aside from all the other stuff people talk about -- the convenience of online stores, the wider selection, the ease of finding sales -- I think it's changed how private people feel about the activity.

A couple of generations ago, the whole idea of an SA giving you personal style advice, knowing your name, etc at a place like Saks was considered a luxury. Now, I think few people want that kind of relationship with a store. More and more people want to be left alone when they shop, and I think that has to do with the rise of online commerce.

Having worked as a SA for several years at my last job, let me just say that the experience was just as awkward for me to get used to talking to customers as it probably was for them to get used to me. Especially having never done that before when I first started out. I had less anxiety when I was unemployed than I did working on a sales floor. I think this problem is compounded by the compensation models used for SAs at stores. If you have a model that's all or mostly commission based, you're going to get SAs that are aggressive and make your customers feel pressured. And this will affect your sales, because the relationship between the SA and customer isn't going to based on something genuine. And these younger customers who experience this will vent their frustrations on your Yelp page or social media or just plain old word of mouth to their friends. Of course, the death spiral continues when managers grind into SAs to be more aggressive because sales are slumping downward.

 

[bry2000]

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

There is something to be said about discovering new stuff from B&M stores like @dieworkwear mentioned, but I'm guilty of just going into a B&M store, discover some cool stuff and then immediately going on Grailed/ebay/Rakuten/YJP to see if I can find it cheaper, especially for brands with distinct aesthetics where the style does not change too much from season to season. There's an element of free riding in that I'm waiting for the guy who bought something at full-price to list it on Grailed 6 months later at half the price.

I guess there has always been a dichotomy of attitudes, purchasing habits, and perhaps income levels between the CM and SWD sections of SF. On the SWD section, there is a sense of the race to the bottom and threads/posts focusing on where to get things deeply discounted (CPs, GATs, etc). I was reading the Gaziano & Girling shoe thread on CM a little while ago and there were posts that were actually applauding the recent price increases (and these posts were from buyers, not sellers). Perhaps that sums up the current state of play on SF.

 

[happyriverz]

I guess there has always been a dichotomy of attitudes, purchasing habits, and perhaps income levels between the CM and SWD sections of SF. On the SWD section, there is a sense of the race to the bottom and threads/posts focusing on where to get things deeply discounted (CPs, GATs, etc). I was reading the Gaziano & Girling shoe thread on CM a little while ago and there were posts that were actually applauding the recent price increases (and these posts were from buyers, not sellers). Perhaps that sums up the current state of play on SF.

It's not even really a matter of income for me, as I make enough money from my job to afford to buy things at full price (not like every month, but definitely enough to make like a couple of "investment" purchases per season), but it's like, why would I voluntarily pay full price for things that I know that could be had for 25%+ less if I just do some internet comparison shopping?

 

[bry2000]

I was not being critical of you or your post. If anything, I was highlighting the surprising comments on the Gaziano thread and joking how many of us on SWD are comparison shoppers in contrast.

 

[happyriverz]

I was not being critical of you or your post. If anything, I was highlighting the surprising comments on the Gaziano thread and joking how many of us on SWD are comparison shoppers in contrast.

LOL, true. But I will buy stuff at full price if it's something that I really want and can't get elsewhere. I bought Norwegian Rain pieces at full price directly from them back in 2013, way before they came more widely distributed than they are now: I don't think they had any US stockists at the time. But if I were to buy it today, I would just wait for a NMWA sale on Norwegian Rain items.

 

[dieworkwear]

NYT on how fashion retail stores are trying to survive

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/12/fashion/store-of-the-future.html

 

[dieworkwear]

More NYT on retail

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/15/business/retail-industry.html?_r=0

 

[LA Guy]

More NYT on retail

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/15/business/retail-industry.html?_r=0

There is no doubt that that brick and mortar is in serious danger. I was listening to an NPR report this morning, and apparently, Amazon has quintupled its retail revenue in the past few years, and 50% of American households have at least one member of the family with Amazon Prime. 2-day free delivery or highly subsidized one day delivery combined with incredible choice for all but the most niche of products (the type of stuff we talk about here) is hard to beat. So, the only reason to schlep down to the anti-septic CVS a few blocks from here is because I ran out of toothpaste, or need some travel toothpaste - not things that will sustain a business. As you know, big retailers, from Macy's to Ralph Lauren, have been closing down doors rapidly, and a few retailers with whom I talk regularly talk grimly about sales at their brick-and-mortars being nearly non-existent, and about closing down those doors because even as a marketing tool, the ROI of a permanent store is very low to negative, and models like pop-up shops and traveling trunk shows seem more economical in addition to generating more excitement.

The only stores that I frequent regularly are grocery and specialty goods stores, and sports stores when saw, I need a new compressions shirt right then, and generally, I am disappointed in the selection (and I'm probably less price motivated than many) in my size (medium), so my purchase is usually not a super enthusiastic one, and it's not at all an emotional sale. In fact, I think that nearly all of the emotional purchases that I've made the the past year, only one has been due to an emotional reaction to seeing the product in person. I do go to boutiques when I am in a big city, but I find that, for the most part, the knowledge and enthusiasm of a good sales person, which is a big part of the draw of a specialty boutique, is generally lacking.

Re. @ClambakeSkate and @Fuuma 's differing opinions, I suspect that the truth lies somewhere in between. The thirst for human interaction is often quenched by online communications (inciuding those here), so there is less of an impetus to seek out face-to-face meetings, which are higher energy and require a much higher degree of engagement. You can't post here, have a snack, and then come back to the conversation. At the same time, consumers have a lot more information at hand than before, so a higher level of knowledge is needed to really engage the customer. Setting aside fashion, where my experience is certainly not typical of most consumers, in, say, electronics stores or sports sports. I'm rarely impressed with any sales person's product knowledge. So, I've had human contact, you are requiring me to use my energy to engage with you (the SA) and you have nothing to offer me that is better than an online transaction? Sorry, I'm going to go online.

For me, the one big exception are proprietor operated businesses where the proprietor really loves what he or she does. But those are very small businesses, and don't represent a very big part of any industry.

 

[ClambakeSkate]

Ay yi yi yi yi yi yi...

The good news from that article is that rents in Soho are "softening" which could be interesting. If anyone wants to survive in retail then I think brands running their own shops is the best model. Wholesale is becoming more and more difficult for anyone but VERY niche products. And if rents crash in soho maybe there will be some sort of renaissance of independent design in the major cities where multi-mark stores can no longer survive. NYC is struggling. Paris is struggling. Milan seems to be OK, but I don't know too many people working in that city. Let's look at the bright side I suppose.

 

[cyc wid it]

Walmart gonna buy Bonobos.

 

[dieworkwear]



There is no doubt that that brick and mortar is in serious danger.  I was listening to an NPR report this morning, and apparently, Amazon has quintupled its retail revenue in the past few years, and 50% of American households have at least one member of the family with Amazon Prime.  2-day free delivery or highly subsidized one day delivery combined with incredible choice for all but the most niche of products (the type of stuff we talk about here) is hard to beat.  So, the only reason to schlep down to the anti-septic CVS a few blocks from here is because I ran out of toothpaste, or need some travel toothpaste - not things that will sustain a business.  As you know, big retailers, from Macy's to Ralph Lauren, have been closing down doors rapidly, and a few retailers with whom I talk regularly talk grimly about sales at their brick-and-mortars being nearly non-existent, and about closing down those doors because even as a marketing tool, the ROI of a permanent store is very low to negative, and models like pop-up shops and traveling trunk shows seem more economical in addition to generating more excitement.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

The only stores that I frequent regularly are grocery and specialty goods stores, and sports stores when saw, I need a new compressions shirt right then, and generally, I am disappointed in the selection (and I'm probably less price motivated than many) in my size (medium), so my purchase is usually not a super enthusiastic one, and it's not at all an emotional sale.  In fact, I think that nearly all of the emotional purchases that I've made the the past year, only one has been due to an emotional reaction to seeing the product in person.  I do go to boutiques when I am in a big city, but I find that, for the most part, the knowledge and enthusiasm of a good sales person, which is a big part of the draw of a specialty boutique, is generally lacking.  

Re. @ClambakeSkate
 and @Fuuma
's differing opinions, I suspect that the truth lies somewhere in between.  The thirst for human interaction is often quenched by online communications (inciuding those here), so there is less of an impetus to seek out face-to-face meetings, which are higher energy and require a much higher degree of engagement.  You can't post here, have a snack, and then come back to the conversation.  At the same time, consumers have a lot more information at hand than before, so a higher level of knowledge is needed to really engage the customer.  Setting aside fashion, where my experience is certainly not typical of most consumers, in, say, electronics stores or sports sports. I'm rarely impressed with any sales person's product knowledge.  So, I've had human contact, you are requiring me to use my energy to engage with you (the SA) and you have nothing to offer me that is better than an online transaction?  Sorry, I'm going to go online.

For me, the one big exception are proprietor operated businesses where the proprietor really loves what he or she does.   But those are very small businesses, and don't represent a very big part of any industry. 

I don't think the big advantage of fashion B&M retail is human interaction. It's that you get to try stuff on. Even with free shipping and returns, that's not the same as being able to have you hand on whatever you want in the store (and discover things you may have never otherwise considered).

That obviously doesn't seem to be a big enough advantage to save a lot of stores though.

The human interaction stuff seems like it's easy to replicate online. I can have a close relationship with an SA over email. But the physical ability to touch and try things on isn't as easy.

I still buy a lot of stuff in B&Ms. Furniture, home decor, hardware supplies, paint supplies, groceries, etc. TBH, the only big categories that have moved for me are music, clothes, movies, and books. Basically stuff that can be easily delivered and/ or streamed over a wire.

 

[LA Guy]

I don't think the big advantage of fashion B&M retail is human interaction. It's that you get to try stuff on. Even with free shipping and returns, that's not the same as being able to have you hand on whatever you want in the store (and discover things you may have never otherwise considered).

That obviously doesn't seem to be a big enough advantage to save a lot of stores though.

The human interaction stuff seems like it's easy to replicate online. I can have a close relationship with an SA over email. But the physical ability to touch and try things on isn't as easy.

I still buy a lot of stuff in B&Ms. Furniture, home decor, hardware supplies, paint supplies, groceries, etc. TBH, the only big categories that have moved for me are music, clothes, movies, and books. Basically stuff that can be easily delivered and/ or streamed over a wire.

I hear what you are saying, but that advantage is too easily overcome. You can comparison shop in the blink of an eye, with stores all over the world. So, essentially you are selling for your competition. I like B&M stores for discoverability as well, but this depends a lot on the taste level of buyers, which frankly, is not always that great. One well known store in Seattle, that proprietor seems to have fashion amnesia. On at least 3 separate occasions, I've asked about a specific brand and was met with a blank stare. A couple of seasons later, I was "introduced" to the same brand, as if that first conversation had never been had.

The logistical issues with moving furniture, home decor, hardware supplies, etc. are all tractable issues what Amazon is working on (Wayfair is trying, but I'm not sure how well they are doing - so it's really just a matter of time.)

 

[LA Guy]

The human interaction stuff seems like it's easy to replicate online. I can have a close relationship with an SA over email. But the physical ability to touch and try things on isn't as easy.

I think that the term is "digital empathy". It's a new phrase for an old concept.

 

[Fuuma]

I started buying things online early (90s) say fan subtitled vhs of HK movies I wanted to see or whatever but I'm pretty sure I've been overcome by the average under 35 Western city dweller. I purchase some clothes (def not all, mostly second hand stuff I'm looking for), "tech" services (streaming like netflix, skype call and storage services), apartment and hotel bookings and sometimes plane tickets, English language books and say the odd electronics (headphones and whatnot).

 

[il_colonnello]



I don't think the big advantage of fashion B&M retail is human interaction. It's that you get to try stuff on. Even with free shipping and returns, that's not the same as being able to have you hand on whatever you want in the store (and discover things you may have never otherwise considered).
[...]

T H I S!

I usually visit the Ann Demeulemeester flagship store once per season, usually around the sales period, and every time, literally every time I come away with some item that I've seen a million times online in the previous six months, and never even considered ordering, but upon seeing it IRL knew I needed to have.

It will be a long time (not in our lifetime) before technology has evolved to a point as to make that experience possible from remote.